[00:00:05] Speaker A: So welcome back to another episode of two Witnesses Live. I hope you guys had a good Sabbath and a good weekend.
So this week we're doing From Darkness to Light, and I'm really, really excited about the song. I spent quite a bit of time on it this weekend. It's called From Darkness to Light. I actually call it A heavy metal Journey. I don't know if heavy metal is everybody's thing, but when I had to actually learn to be okay with heavy metal because when I was growing up, I was kind of sheltered in the way that I was raised. And heavy metal was like the devil's music. You know what I mean? Just because it was mean and aggressive. But after I got over that and learned that it wasn't the devil's music, well, there is definitely some music that is. Does serve Satan, but not all heavy metal.
Really helpful for running. It's. It's fantastic to give you. Give you a good beat to get you running. So anyway, I fell in love with heavy metal, found some Christian heavy metal music. So it's kind of near and dear to my heart. Anyway, long story short, this week's song is a heavy metal journey. It starts off with just a somber talking, and then it gets into some instrumental, and then it gets into, like a heavy metal acoustic choir.
Really encourage everybody to listen to it. It's on the two Witnesses live channel. It's the video that's produced. It says music as the tag, but it's called From Darkness to Light. And that's kind of our theme for this week is talking about coming out of darkness, coming to light.
And so along those lines, we're going to be talking about religious narcissists. We're going to be talking about false prophets. We're going to be talking about cults. I know I have some experience with cults. Maybe all of us here have some experience with cults. But today we have, you know, some of our typical guests. We have David Sepulveda, we have Paul, and we have Ashley. So, Ashley, you're brand new to the show. Welcome. Thank you for joining us today. Would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself?
Sure.
[00:02:21] Speaker B: So I'm a dancer from Kansas City and just recently coming out of a pretty broken relationship and been a Christian my whole life. My grandfather is a Pentecostal preacher. Asked him to, you know, and pray with me when I was six years old, before I left my bed to ask Jesus into my heart. And just kind of, you know, from there, you, you know, we backslide a little bit. But pretty Much. Always had the prompting of the Holy Spirit and the feeling of right and wrong and wanting to be on the side of right. So, yeah, I'm very excited to be here. I got some knowledge about some of the topics and then some. I'm just really excited to hear.
[00:03:06] Speaker A: Well, we're excited to have you on the show. Thank you so much.
Why don't we do quick introductions here for Paul. Who are you and what do you do?
[00:03:15] Speaker C: Hi, I'm Paul and I am retired. Live up in northern Minnesota. I do the whole hunting, fishing, outdoorsman type stuff.
Many of you know me as a moderator on Two Witnesses Live. I did that for probably, oh, better part of a year before I joined Watchful here on the channel and really looking forward to talking with you, Ashley.
[00:03:40] Speaker A: Yeah, excited. And David, who are you and what do you do?
[00:03:46] Speaker D: Well, my name is David Sepulveda. I am a father of four.
I work with the state of Wisconsin and I also moonlight as a head coach. I help people get unstuck with what's going on in their head. And I also, I've written a book and I've got a little bit of experience with Colts.
I was in one just about my whole life, from fifth grade until I want to say I was about 25 when I left.
So a good portion of my life.
[00:04:30] Speaker A: Yep.
So this will be an interesting conversation. Yeah. Looking at you there, buddy, is my cult brother here.
[00:04:41] Speaker D: Some good things come out of them.
[00:04:43] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, I struggle with calling it a cult. I mean, by this, by the definition of a cult, it's not. So what we, what, what David and I were a part of, by the strict definition of a cult, it's not technically a cult because they have a board of trustees.
A cult, I believe by the dictionary definition, requires that you follow a single individual.
The reason I use the word cult is because there were a lot of people who thought they were that individual that you should be following.
We ended up with. There was a lot of religious narcissists and, you know, maybe we get into that. But today I want to make sure that we have lots of time for ash. Ashley, know that you are in good company.
You've got some of the, some of the best colts, some of the best biblical experts and cult experts in the room with you today. So I'm going to turn this over to Paul because Paul's been working with Ashley this week and I'm going to let you kind of direct the conversation for what we should talk about. Sound good?
[00:05:41] Speaker C: Yeah, that sounds good. I should add that I've not been in a cult or religious cult type situation myself, but I did have a very, very difficult journey with escaping from a narcissist relationship with a narcissist myself. So they're a little bit different, but they're also a little bit the same, so it'll be interesting.
Ashley, you've been on quite the journey the last, what, couple of weeks?
How did you come to realize that that was not the relationship you wanted?
It's broken for me too.
[00:06:41] Speaker A: There you go.
[00:06:42] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:06:43] Speaker B: Okay. I just moved a little bit. Oh, I can.
[00:06:50] Speaker C: As you sit back, it drops the sound.
[00:06:54] Speaker B: Okay. So how's this? Okay. Okay.
[00:06:57] Speaker A: I think that's okay.
[00:06:59] Speaker B: Yeah. So I was saying, wasn't one.
[00:07:04] Speaker C: Oh, still a little broken.
[00:07:07] Speaker B: Is this better?
[00:07:09] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:07:09] Speaker B: How's that? So I just need closer.
Okay. So there wasn't just one identified factor. It was basically everything. Our whole.
[00:07:25] Speaker A: It's still cutting out. For some reason, when you start talking long sentences, it seems to cut off. It's like when you respond with just one word, it's okay, but with the sentences, it's seems to be cutting you off.
I wonder if it's the echo in the rooms not coming back and canceling. Canceling out your. Because you. There's a. There's a bit of an echo in there. I wonder if. If you don't have. If there's not some echo cancellation going on.
Nope, nope.
[00:08:22] Speaker C: We lost her.
[00:08:25] Speaker A: All right, well, while we wait for her to reconnect, maybe she's moving into a different location.
Yeah. So regarding. Go ahead.
[00:08:36] Speaker C: Let's talk a little bit about what we understand a religious narcissist to be.
[00:08:42] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay.
[00:08:43] Speaker C: Oh, here she is.
[00:08:45] Speaker B: I might have to just hold my phone. Is this better?
[00:08:48] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, crystal clear. Okay.
[00:08:50] Speaker B: So I moved into a less, like, open area, and I'm just holding my phone.
[00:08:55] Speaker A: Yeah, that's better. That's fine.
[00:08:57] Speaker B: Okay. Okay.
Okay. So, yeah, as I was saying, there wasn't. To answer your question, wasn't one identifying fact multiple. And when I started putting everything together and I started asking the right questions from God.
[00:09:19] Speaker C: Still a little choppy.
[00:09:20] Speaker A: Yeah, still choppy.
Is anything I can change in here?
[00:09:27] Speaker B: Maybe I could go outside?
[00:09:36] Speaker C: Outside might work.
[00:09:38] Speaker A: Yeah, maybe try outside.
[00:09:40] Speaker B: Okay, I'm gonna go again.
[00:09:42] Speaker C: Okay.
To me, you know, I look at narcissism, to me, really means selfish.
I like the term narcissist because it's a much, much better search term than selfish. You can get at real details and a lot of information with it.
It's all quality.
And the religious narcissists will use selfishness and then some sort of vehicle to express that selfishness out into the world. You know, they may be arrogant, there's cerebral people that, you know, do it through intelligence.
They kind of brag up, look how smart I am. The religious narcissists use religion to express that selfishness.
[00:10:41] Speaker A: Yeah.
And, you know, and the thing about religious narcissists as they, they come across as loving, strong people, in my experience, to where they'll use the terminology that diffuses you so that you don't pick up on their selfishness.
[00:10:58] Speaker B: Right.
[00:10:59] Speaker C: Yeah, they're very good at it.
[00:11:01] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:11:02] Speaker C: But one of the things that I see them do a lot is they will use like scriptural sounding words, like the spirit told me that. And.
[00:11:14] Speaker A: Right.
[00:11:15] Speaker C: If you stop and think about that a little bit, what they're doing is exalting themselves above who they're talking to.
[00:11:23] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. That's the trick is they, in your mind, without you realizing it, you're attributing them as being the anointed, as somebody who has been blessed because they're hearing things that you're not hearing.
They're hearing things that you're not hearing. They're seeing things that you're not seeing. You know, God has, you know, something is special about them.
So they say that God is choosing to speak with them. And, you know, unconsciously we look at those people as though they are the anointed, as though they are the man or the woman of God. I fell for that for the longest time.
[00:12:06] Speaker C: Right.
[00:12:08] Speaker B: Wow, that's good.
[00:12:11] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:12:12] Speaker B: And they, I also noticed in, in my scenarios that they use avoidance as a form of control.
Can you guys hear me?
[00:12:22] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Crystal clear.
[00:12:23] Speaker B: So with. Good. This. Yeah, I was outside. It's probably echoing.
Avoidance is a form of control. And if they, I would ever do something wrong in their eyes, maybe not even in God's eyes, but just in there, they would, you know, tell me that I had to repent and make it up to them. And they would just not talk to me for hours, hours and hours.
And I, I noticed I was a former control, so I did, I wrote that down. Avoidance or manipulation, which is avoidance is kind of like manipulation and that's a form of control. They would use anger or stolen. I wrote all those down.
[00:13:09] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:13:10] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:13:11] Speaker B: And I, I guess I could. I'm just learning with Paul about the different types of narcissists. So the COVID and the spiritual. I'm not sure which category I would even put my experience but maybe more spiritual because they did seem like I couldn't hear from God. And any word that I heard from God wasn't like, did he would always question. He was a male. But they always question, did you really hear from God?
[00:13:40] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:13:40] Speaker B: And there was like, I really got a dream. And it's like you pray about it, you ask for confirmation and the synchronicity, you know, the confirmations, I call them the synchronicities that kind of line up with the truth, especially comparing it to the Word and what other prophets are getting, words of knowledge. And it seemed to line up and it still didn't seem like it was true or he didn't want to give me credit. So I wanted to add that. That one, that one a little.
[00:14:10] Speaker A: That's such a good point. Go ahead, Paul.
[00:14:12] Speaker C: Yeah. Do you know with the.
My experience is when I, when I hear from God, I really don't share it with anybody.
And I have people around me that, you know, I've heard from God and it directly relates to people around me, but it is for me, it is not for them.
What I. What they need to know, I share with them.
But in your experience, Ashley, when people would hear from, you know, you never really know did they hear from God or not that, you know what they tell you, but would they just like blurt everything out all over the place?
[00:14:58] Speaker B: And it was yes. And it was like, it was yes from God. But I was chosen to be told this information. Almost like, I'm the anointed, I'm the chosen one, and I have so much power. It was a lot about power.
[00:15:14] Speaker C: Right?
How about, did they see everybody on the same level? I mean, I don't know about you guys, but I really kind of feel like all four of us, we're all people, we're all the same. We're all on the same level. We're all seeking God together.
[00:15:32] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:15:35] Speaker B: I was definitely not on the same level. And because I was a woman, I was not on the same level.
[00:15:42] Speaker D: I know one thing that I, that's always helped me when in those situations is realizing, can I be at peace with the terminology or the words or what's happening? And when I can't find that peace, that's usually the red light for me to realize, ah, this is, this is not good for me.
It. And it. At times it has been people trying to calm me down.
Not, not that I was agitated, but they were trying to make me not question the thoughts I have. I have a very inquisitive mind and they get me to settle down and just relax. And it just didn't feel safe.
[00:16:39] Speaker B: Yes. Thank you. I actually put a scripture on David for that. First Corinthians 7:15. And it's. If the unbelieving notice it does it believing.
But if the unbelieving spouse, you know, chooses to leave, let them leave, let them depart. It's better to live in peace.
Thank you. David was very disrupted, so I've been struggling with. Is this biblical? To leave? Do I have biblical grounds to leave? Am I going to be cursed? Am I going to be sitting if I leave? But that verse, everyone who's listening, First Corinthians 7:15. If you choose to depart because you just get irreconcilable differences because of these narcissistic tendencies, this is abuse. And God does not want you to live in abuse. He wants us to live in peace. So that's what.
Thanks, David.
[00:17:38] Speaker D: You're welcome. I really think that, you know, God is a personal God and if he's going to work in someone standing next to you to speak to you to tell you something, then it's going to have the impact that God intended it to have. So I'm not saying that the words are always soft, but it's gonna hit you in a way that makes you realize, wait a minute, you're not gonna question it. And once you start questioning it, that should tell you something. It's gonna be the perfect words for you to hear. And for me, it's always been, do I feel safe? And I'm a big dude, so feeling safe, you know, it means a lot to me to feel safe. I know when I'm not safe, it's right away.
[00:18:28] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:18:30] Speaker C: Yeah.
Did. How was you when you departed? There was what I would call a narcissistic rage. Does that term make sense to you?
[00:18:52] Speaker B: It fits. I couldn't think of an. Of a better.
Definitely a rage. Remember, we're learning about narcissism. Yeah.
I would say because it felt like he had entitlement. Yes. And I mean, yes. Narcissistic rate. She told me to leave, find a place by the end of the month. The house was selling, so that's what I was doing. Reaching out to people that I trusted, that I knew could help me because not everybody could just help me without giving. I'm four months pregnant and I have twins, two year old baby girls. So there's four women, vulnerable women that are just go find somewhere else to go.
And so I was trying to do that, but then whenever I guess I reached out to the wrong people. Which is the only thing that I equated to maybe cultic behavior because I couldn't reach out to anybody outside of the church.
But when I did reach out to people in the church, I have the evidence for this. Not that that matters, but as the belt of truth is around me, they said they do not want to hear and to take everything to Jesus and not help me.
[00:20:12] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:20:14] Speaker C: That's one thing that I think is different from my experience with a narcissist is what all of you have experienced probably is kind of a group think or a hive mentality within the church.
[00:20:29] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah. That was. That was a big thing. That was a red flag for me later on in life is why weren't we able to talk to people outside of the organization? I wanted to go to churches. I'm like, if, you know, if we're. If we're supposed to be out there teaching, reaching people, you know, witnessing.
Sure, we did the door to door thing, but it's just like there was this idea that if you were. If you went to another church, they weren't the faithful remnant. They weren't the faithful remnant, quote, unquote. And they might lure you away. There was this fear of like, being. Being lured away from the, you know, the right place to be. And that was something that I struggled with. And it wasn't until I actually broke free of that to realize, wait a minute, there's people who love God everywhere. That group that I was in was not the only group. They were not just the only faithful remnant. Sure, there might be some fantastic people in that organization, in that group who love God and who are amazing people. But, you know, when you think about the word church, it's not a building, it's an assembly. It's where people are gathered together in his name. That's not limited to a single organization. And even Jesus in the book of Revelation addresses seven churches. So, like, one of them is not going to be the only one.
[00:21:50] Speaker C: Right?
[00:21:52] Speaker B: Right.
Wow.
I think it was almost piggybacking off of that. It feels like they were afraid to be maybe seen for what they are.
If I reached out to any other, I'm gonna say brother or sister, because I know these are brothers and sisters in Christ. I will live with them for e. You know, as long as we keep falling the right path. And so I wasn't reaching out to unbeliever. And so I thought that was weird that I can't even reach out to my sister in Christ. So. And I helped with some Things that had gone on in, within the relationship that I was not getting help for, that was very tragic. Very. Just betrayal and lots of lies and trying to make sense of that. And I needed a support group of women and I just wasn't getting it. So I did reach out and I kind of reprimanded for that. I have 4% battery. I'm gonna go my wireless charger real quick.
[00:23:03] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:23:04] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:23:05] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:23:06] Speaker B: All right.
[00:23:07] Speaker C: I had kind of a similar experience, but I think it's different from what you guys had.
Most difficult narcissist I've had in my life was my father. He's. He's since passed away, but when I was breaking away from him, I was essentially not permitted to talk to my sisters or my mother.
[00:23:31] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:23:32] Speaker C: Just really cut off. And, you know, if you're not gonna.
If you're not going to play my game my way, then you're not part of the family. And it's like shapers. And I think that's kind of like the concept of.
It's a bit like flying monkeys, if you've ever heard that term.
The narcissist kind of controls some people around them, the narrative of some people around them.
And you can't talk to them, you can't. They only want to hear one side of the story. What does the narcissist tell me? I need to do it. And that's what they do.
[00:24:12] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:24:14] Speaker D: You know, one of the things, when I eventually left the organization I was with, one of the things I had to realize was that it talks about the household as the body of Christ.
And I had to look at the body as it has different systems, skeletal, nervous system, digestive system. And though I couldn't find the right church to go to, I did end up working in a banking system.
And in working with my fellow co workers, I found people that wanted to improve, wanted to be better. I was in a position of authority where I could help them, coach them on what to do for their life. And I never, like I've said before, I wasn't able to quote scripture, but I was able to give principle. And these people ended up latching on and they would follow me from different career paths that I took. And it's just amazing to see that when you get away from that narcissism and you're still putting on the mind of Christ and you're applying biblical principles, people see it and then they start wanting more of it. And that's right, it got to where I got to surround myself with some really quality People, I mean, I consider my life blessed with the people that are close to me.
[00:25:48] Speaker A: You know, it's interesting, I had a really similar experience too, is, you see, when I was involved, it's funny because it went through stages because, you know, my early childhood, it was. I didn't realize that I was trapped. I didn't realize there was anything to be afraid of. It really wasn't until I got older and started discovering these walls that I wasn't allowed to breach. And once you started breaching those walls, that's when they, you know, the fear started. And what I've realized, and what I realized after breaching those walls is God has not given us the spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind. The scripture actually says that. And you don't really understand it until somebody is using that fear against you. They're lying and they're manipulating you in order to control you. And that's really common in churches that are trying to control their membership. That's really common with narcissists who are trying to control their followers. That's really common with false prophets. And I think it even lines up with the spirit of Antichrist.
We've done a terrible disservice using that word Antichrist in these last couple of years, constantly looking for this one individual who is the Antichrist, when we should be focusing on the fact that the spirit of Antichrists is what's actually destroying this world. Because you've got these people who are pretending to be anointed that are gathering together followers to themselves and holding them under their thumb with fear. One of the attributes of Antichrist, and I encourage everybody go do a study on the word Antichrist in the Bible. It's the easiest study to do. There's only four uses. One of the attributes is they are liars and deceivers. So if you're involved with someone or an organization that has to lie in order to keep control over you, huge red flag.
[00:27:42] Speaker C: Yep.
[00:27:44] Speaker D: It's. You know, what you just said makes me think about. We. We're in a peculiar time with. If you think about how many people you meet come from broken homes, how many children have been raised without a dad or with less of a mom than they deserve. Right. These individuals are going to be looked. They're. They're not going to have the family love that. They're not going to see that. And that's usually what causes people to go look for a church so that they can that. Right. And then when they go to a Church. The church is going to want to guarantee outcomes. And not all churches, but that's. They want to guarantee outcomes. And when their outcomes aren't coming about, then they start leaning toward this abusive type of leadership where it's not our teachings fault, it's your fault. If I can't teach you, then you're the problem and that's not it. Since when does God ever say I can't teach you? That doesn't make any sense at all. Right. We're in a time now where you've got so many people looking to learn more in every aspect of their life and we have the opportunity to show them in all the different walks of life that we're involved in.
[00:29:10] Speaker A: Amen.
Yeah.
[00:29:13] Speaker C: One of the things that I kind of noticed too, with control is the person grabbing control always seems to be saying, you will do what I say. And it is really close to you will worship me and it's so the wrong God.
[00:29:36] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that's a really good point.
[00:29:39] Speaker C: Goes right with the Antichrist spirit of Antichrist, doesn't it?
[00:29:43] Speaker A: That is exactly right. Yeah. We. God wants us to be individually strong. You have a free will choice. He wants you to make your own decisions. Don't allow other people to make them for you.
He, you.
Truth withstands scrutiny. So if somebody is offended or angry or afraid because you're questioning something they're telling you, don't stop. Because if it's true, they will be able to support it, they will be able to defend it. If the scripture truly does say what it is that they're trying to force on you as a belief, they should be able to explain it to you in a way that you are willing to accept so that you believe it. Because you're in charge of your own life, you're the one who has to be convinced. You don't just have to blindly believe. And so often narcissists, religious narcissists, false prophets, they want you to believe without asking questions. They want you to blindly follow. And once you start to break out of that pattern, that's when you really start to wake up. And that's when you're really starting to listen to God and see the power of God. Because once it's hard to get retrapped. Once you've been through these things like red flags go off everywhere. When you've been through this kind of stuff in your life, you start to pick up on it and become an expert. You know, just like all of us in this room, it'd be hard to get us Trapped into another, you know, another control situation. Because we know what it feels like and we know what it means to have that freedom. And that's what God wants. He wants us to have that freedom. And that's where you have that empathetical, brotherly love. That is that same love that Christ had, the same love that he had for the church as to where he empathized with the church and we empathize with him. That is loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself.
[00:31:39] Speaker D: I would even go as far as to say, when you find yourself in those situations, that you should count yourself blessed.
Because when you find yourself in those situations where you get the opportunity to go through it, to go through the challenge to. Sorry. When you find your chance to go through that challenge on the other side of that challenge.
Every time it's ever happened to me, I've always risen further than where I was before. Every time. And whether it's with understanding God, whether it was with friendships, with relationships, whether it was with careers, when I got those challenges and I stood fast on the principles that I knew, and I just said, you know what? It's.
It's right. Tantamount to saying, not my will, but thine be done. I know I'm supposed to stand strong. I know I'm supposed to study to show thyself approved unto God. Right. I know that I need to ask these questions. I need to commit. And then once I get through the storm, it's always come out better for me. I've even told people while I'm in it, I don't know, but I sure I'll land on my feet, and I always do.
[00:33:03] Speaker A: Yeah, Such a good point. I don't regret anything that I've gone through. I've looked at it as my. As the father training me to be strong in the areas that he needs me.
[00:33:16] Speaker C: Ashley, you're going through this right now. How do you feel?
[00:33:20] Speaker B: I love what I just came in on.
Comforted and reassured by your words. What I just heard. And I feel like just in this week, Paul, because he connect. The Lord connected me with you. You connected you and I.
I can't not grow talking to you.
We're so full of wisdom. And what you were just saying hit me because I really thought I had failed.
You know, like, never been.
Never been married. Always wanted to be married. Always prayed, waited and waited and waited and then this.
[00:34:02] Speaker C: And I'm like, oh, no, now you see, you're conquering.
Yeah, you're conquering.
[00:34:09] Speaker B: But I am. And when I'm Real with myself.
I mean, I took pages of notes. I've watched several legitimate YouTube videos with Christian. Like they're making this stuff and I didn't know this was. That was out there. So of course I've grown knowledge and wisdom. I've met all of you guys.
Yeah, this is good. This is. And I can teach whenever. You know, the elder women of the church are supposed to teach the younger women. I would have never been able to teach even my own daughters these things. I didn't even really know the narcissist. Narcissistic term. I had heard it, you know, just. But never. I was raised great. I, I was raised in a good household. Paul, you tried to figure out with me how did this even happen? Because I wasn't even raised with a narcissist. I, you know, thought I had a pretty good upbringing. But I think we've identified it. So maybe. Yeah, and touch on that.
[00:35:08] Speaker C: How. How helpful is it to understand the traits of narcissism?
[00:35:14] Speaker B: Oh, goodness. So you're not deceived. I mean, Jesus warned us. I looked up 11 or 12. Are these 12 different scriptures in the Bible where before Jesus would answer a question, he would say, let no man deceive you by any means.
So he's even our high priest, who we are to learn and model behind is telling us, do not be deceived. So it's a incredibly important that you learn how to not be deceived.
[00:35:42] Speaker C: And that's.
Did you find in your experience that understanding those traits of a narcissist help you avoid being deceived and build discernment?
[00:35:56] Speaker B: Yes. And realize that even though we hope, we love and forgive 70 times 7 and all that, that doesn't mean that we're a doormat and we get walked on. So identify.
That's different. Forgiving 70 times 7, it's like, I don't know, it's not big deals like this. Like, that's not what I believe Jesus is referencing. Like, you don't deserve to be abused 70 times 7. You don't have 490 times.
[00:36:27] Speaker C: No.
[00:36:27] Speaker B: And I walk away now.
[00:36:30] Speaker C: One of the things I've been of digging on here lately is you know how Jesus. Because it's really important to be able to draw good personal boundaries. So how did Jesus do it? That's how I want to do it. And Jesus of course, always drew the boundary very clear, very consistent. It was what's the Father's will here? That's what Jesus did.
[00:36:57] Speaker A: And the other thing, the other thing we can learn From Jesus is we. We. You suffer from a position of strength. You don't suffer from a position of weakness. So if you're abuse, if you're being abused, if you're trapped, if you're in danger, that is not the time where you, you, you sacrifice yourself. Unless here's the thing, you sacrifice with your own free will, not against your own will. So if you're, if you're going to subject yourself to abuse, you should do it from a position of strength. Does that make sense?
[00:37:32] Speaker C: I think it does. Yeah. It does to me.
[00:37:35] Speaker D: The way I understand that taking it from a place of strength is you have to understand what the body, the five senses that you have. Right. And there are times where I will suffer for someone because I'm bringing that person up.
[00:37:58] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:37:59] Speaker D: It's not so that they can pull me down.
My kids, I teach my kids, the big kids, make the little kids happy. Right. And there it's a, it's that type of a. Yep. I will suffer going through this with you because it's improving. It's not a. I'm gonna suffer because you're beating the heck out of me and I can't defend myself. And, and when it, when it comes to that, that forgive, it's not forget. For instance, I don't forget that fire burns when I get so close to it. I forgive the fire and I can appreciate the beauty of it from a certain distance away. And I determine that distance by how badly I got burned.
So when I forgive someone, I am looking to determine how close can I let you to me?
Sometimes it's an arm's distance, sometimes it's a whole nother life. I need to get totally away from you. But that forgiveness is not with forgetting. He's not forget them 70 times 7.
[00:39:12] Speaker A: That's right. It doesn't take abuse 70 times 7 either.
[00:39:16] Speaker C: Right.
What it means to me to be, you know, suffer from a position of strength is really another way of saying that would be choosing to show grace to someone.
And you know, you may sacrifice your time, you may sack. Maybe you don't get to eat dinner that night because somebody needs your time and effort now, but you're doing it from a position of wanting to give. And if you chose, you know, no, I need to be at dinner with my family because my kids need. Need to see me. Then you're going to dinner. You're not locked into something.
[00:40:03] Speaker A: That's right.
[00:40:04] Speaker D: If you, if you really want to get to where this drives it home, think of that mindset as Christ is Getting crucified at any moment. He could have called in for legions of angels.
[00:40:20] Speaker C: Any moment.
[00:40:22] Speaker D: Yeah, he.
Nope, not my will. Thine be done. Right? At any moment. He could have stopped it and they would have been shaking in their boots.
But he. No, he knew the price. And he did it for the little kids. For you and I, he was the big kid doing it for the little ones.
[00:40:43] Speaker C: Well. And Jesus had the right Thine. Okay, A lot of people going through this, their Thine is whoever their narcissist is, and that's not the right one.
It's. It's God's will. You know, God the creator, not the guy with the God complex.
[00:41:04] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So in a relationship, that's where you have to determine, is it worth it for you? Do you still see, and this is what I think First Corinthians is referring to. Do you see enough hope in that person that you're willing to endure from a position of strength? Or do you need to remove yourself so that you can get strong before you could ever go back to potentially help that person? Because God wants us individually strong. He's raising us up. He's training us. He's chastising us, and he's loving us. And he does not. He doesn't abuse us for the sake, for some sick reason to abuse. We're allowed to suffer these things so that we can grow and become strong, so that we can then from a position of strength. Like David was saying, at any point in time, Jesus could have called 72 legions of angels. That is the ultimate position of strength. And yet he still submitted himself to his Father's will. So don't let somebody fool you and trick you into thinking that their will is God's will. We focus on God's will, not the other people's will. God wants you strong. And if you're going to suffer, you do it willingly.
[00:42:27] Speaker D: You know? And never underestimate the power of prayer. Because prayer, that's. That's God working in you. Never forget that you are wonderfully made. God made you. Do you know how many microorganisms are inside that beautiful body of yours and ours? All of ours. And each one of those microorganisms have to make decisions. And the ones that make bad decisions, they don't make it. The ones that do make good decisions, they make it. And all of that together makes up who we are.
We have all of the knowledge of all of those microorganisms making good decisions all the way back through our bloodlines, our parents, our grandparents, great Grandparents, all of that lines up so that we can be who we are. We are here for a purpose. Never forget that God works in you. So when you take that quiet time for prayer and you relax your mind, try and ease all of the commotion of the day to day stuff that's going through, you got to cherish that time. And that is where God works in you. That is where God gives you that peace. That's where you can rely on that. You have to trust in that you. And now it's according to the Word because you're learning, you're. That that whole fighting of the silence while you're praying, that's the same thing as what my body wants to do and what I read from the scripture.
It's that same. My body wants to do one thing, scripture tells me to do another.
When I'm praying, my body wants to do something, but I'm telling it. Relax, breathe, you're fine.
Here's what you should do next. That's not working in you, Ashley.
[00:44:29] Speaker C: What are your thoughts there, Ashley?
[00:44:32] Speaker B: I just had to do that, David. I was in a fight or flight situation. You said the narcissist, narcissistic rage that I go back and going back to that, David, I had to. I had two daughters and one unborn that was relying on me when this person was checking to make sure I say things carefully. Just destroying the house, trying to find my cell phone to most likely destroy my cell phone.
[00:45:07] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:45:08] Speaker B: And so I had to.
And I will tell you guys this, this is how good say that you can't hear from God. It's not like you always hear a booming voice like I am God and this is, I'm about to talk to you. No, it's the feeling signature that I had. I had already been told to hide the car keys in my phone.
[00:45:32] Speaker A: That's usually how God works, is you're prepared way in advance. People are so often looking for the booming voice, the dream, the vision, the angel. And so often it's like he's already in your prayer, your time alone with him. He's already had you prepared for what it is that you're going to deal with. That's how knowing that you heard from God usually is hindsight.
[00:45:55] Speaker B: Even know like Paul, I hadn't known anything about a narcissist rage. You said that. And I was like, well, that fits. That herbage fits what happened to me. But I had no idea. You kept asking, are you safe? Are you safe? Are you safe? I'm like, well, I think I am why should I not be?
I didn't even know I wasn't. But I followed the prompting of the. Of the. Of the feeling I got. It was a very strong sense of urgency to.
To rush, leaving and to hide my things because I wasn't safe. But I had never.
Not like he had ever physically, really, like, you know, threatened me in that way. It was never like that. But this time, there's always one time.
This scripture, Luke 8:17.
Nothing.
Well, I didn't actually write it down, but I wrote nothing hidden as a clue. Okay, so it is Luke 8:17, I believe it's. Everything that's done in the dark will be brought to light. Light. Nothing that is hidden or done in the dark will be. Will stay hidden. Okay, that's not like quoting it perfectly, but you can look that up. It's just that it will happen. Like, I'm seeing this. I didn't know this before. It was very hidden.
The tendencies. I'll say. And the behaviors. Very, very hidden, very deceptive. And actually going out of your way to say, I'm not the kind of person that's like this. Like the things that, you know, my. My person was lying about. He, you know, would go out of his way to say, he's not like that without me even asking or even a situation being brought up. It's like he was getting ahead of himself.
But it's being brought to the light now, and it will be. And like you said, David, just breathe. And I'm okay, because I was almost trying to fight it and trying to figure it out. But then I realized, like, I might not be the problem. Even though he's definitely pointing the finger and calling everybody and trying to get co signers and validation after validation after validation. I'm slowly sinking and feeling like every shamed, deftly shamed. And I feel like I'm just sinking in this pit. I had to learn how to do that, David, like, stand on the scripture.
I know who I am.
I've been raised in the church. I'm really not that bad. It can't be that bad, you know, can't be that bad. And it's just being brought to the light. So I guess for the listeners, if you feel that way, like you are sinking and like everything's caving in on you, there might be a reason. Maybe he's planting you somewhere else. Like you're not supposed to be there. Trust the process. Because everything that is done in the darkness will be brought to light. That's what it is.
[00:48:52] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is okay to leave. If you're unsure and you feel that you're in an unsafe situation, it is okay to leave. But man, I can tell you, for those flying monkeys, that term comes from the wizard of Oz where the witch sends the flying monkeys to go to go after Dorothy and her friends.
Narcissists do that, especially with people who. They'll try to win one or more people over to their side and then send that person to go manipulate you. That is so hard to deal with. If you feel like you're in a situation and the world is coming against you, get out. You can always get. Come back when you're stronger. If you're in an unsafe situation, or if you're afraid, remove yourself if at all possible.
[00:49:40] Speaker D: Well, even just look at social media. I mean, if that doesn't show you what flying monkeys looks like, you get one person. You know, my kids call them trolls. Right. You get one person to start saying something for a rise, and then other people are trying to get people to rise because that gets likes and that gets views and I mean, it's like, who has the largest army of flying monkeys is what goes all over. There's no surprise we're covered in it.
[00:50:14] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a good point.
[00:50:17] Speaker C: One of the things that I think is really important for people to know is narcissists have. They really kind of have two personalities. One that's a complete fiction.
And they'll appear very nice and friendly and cordial and, you know, just a very lovable person.
And that's very fake. It's just a narrative.
And at times they'll let you. It's almost like a mask. And at times, you kind of see underneath that mask a little bit and realize they aren't all nice and friendly and loving. They're liars, they're deceivers, they're tricksters, they're selfish.
They're doing these things. That's where you're kind of looking behind that mask.
And my experience is when you peel that mask back in their presence, that's where the narcissistic rage comes boiling out of them.
[00:51:19] Speaker D: Yeah. Just remember that that is their power. Right. Remember, there are those four ways to.
To encourage people. Right. Was that acronym was rice with reward, Ideology, coercion, and ego. Right. Those are the ways that you get people moving forward to. To take action. And if you put them in order of. Of which one's the most powerful ideology. Right. What's right and what's wrong, what I believe in, then there's reward. What I want to achieve. Right. If I want something, I'll go do it. And then after that is ego. If someone thinks I'm doing it bad. And then there's coercion. Right? So that narcissist, when they're looking to. To get someone to do something, they are residing in the weakest form of power. Coercion. Whether it's coercion through manipulation, through people, they're using that low vibration, they're using the forceful. If they're not around, there's no way you're gonna do it. Only if they're around will anyone ever do it. I mean, that's a sign right there that this is the weakest form of power. If I'm gonna elevate to ideology what I actually believe in, what I know is true, then that's going to take some exhortation, that's going to take teaching, that's going to take allowing people to make mistakes. And when I leave that person, if they believe it, they'll do it whether I'm there or not. And that's when you know that's God working because you don't have to be there. And it still works.
[00:53:00] Speaker A: Yeah.
Wow.
[00:53:03] Speaker B: Wow.
Driven by greed and desire. Is what I heard while you were saying what you were saying. And I actually wrote that.
So this is more like connecting the dots. False prophets.
[00:53:22] Speaker D: Amen.
[00:53:23] Speaker B: They I notes of my experience.
[00:53:26] Speaker A: Experience.
[00:53:27] Speaker B: Like they can either have a spirit of divination where they just hear, like act like a medium and they really hear from demons. Okay. It's like doctrine of demons, like Balaam or someone is really truly called and there's a real true calling on their life, but has lost their connection to God through sin.
Instead separates it says God.
It is here from the.
[00:53:59] Speaker D: You're breaking up.
[00:54:01] Speaker A: Losing your audio again.
[00:54:03] Speaker B: Okay, okay, I'm gonna get closer. I did go further away.
I don't believe. According to Romans 11:29, the gifts can be taken or irrevocable. Or irrevocable. But they can still operate in the gifts, but no longer under the anointing of the power of the Holy Spirit, which is what I believe is a false prophet.
And in the Bible an example would be Balaam, and he was driven by greed and desire to be famous.
So I think the question for that. False prophets. False prophets is what drives them.
That's how you can discern them. What is driving them? Ego. And to be powerful and famous and kind of have their own platform.
[00:54:50] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:54:51] Speaker B: Their own church, their own this.
Or you'll know them by their Fruits, or are they humble and just, wise and loving? And, you know, love covers a multitude of s. So maybe we can. You can even help me equate the two, because a lot of times narcissism and false prophets kind of go hand in hand. That's kind of what I've been researching and hearing from Paul and understanding. Can we touch on that a little bit? That'll help me also. It'll probably help others.
[00:55:20] Speaker A: Yeah. One of the scariest verses in the Bible is, many will come to me in that day saying, lord, Lord, did we not cast out demons in your name? Did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not do many wonderful works in your name? And he will say, I never knew you.
They fake and they lie. That is the spirit of Antichrist. They are liars and deceivers. So often when you hear people saying that, you know, they. They did a miracle, that they cast out a spirit that they heard from God, that they had a dream, all of these things they use in order to warp your perception about them, to make you think that they're holy. Those are the people. They're just lies. It's not even real. The stuff that they're telling you is not even real. They may be telling you they healed somebody, and this is how you really know if somebody healed somebody. You don't take their testimony for it. You go ask the person they said they healed. You'll be. You'll. You'll find out more often than not that the person will be like, yeah, sure, I felt some. I felt a little warmth or something, but I still have cancer.
You know what I mean? That was not a healing. That was warm hands on you, that. And, and, you know, something else happened, but it wasn't a healing. And so often that's how you. You can flush them out, call them out. Truth withstands scrutiny. You can question anybody. Now, obviously, we do it decent, in order. We're respectful, we're kind, we're loving. But if somebody's trying to manipulate you or warp your reality or they're trying to make themselves look good, you probably have somebody who's a narcissist or a false prophet. They lie.
[00:56:56] Speaker D: And it's. We shouldn't, we shouldn't be deceived to think that they don't have power. Right? Let's. Let's not get to where we don't see that they have power. It's that the power of God is that much greater, Right? If you look at the power between love and fear, right? If someone is scared of something. Boom, man, they're moving fast, right? If. If I raise my voice, my dog Zero, they're gone, right? Fear gets things, people moving. There's power there, but it burns people out. It doesn't stand the test of time.
That's why there is forgiveness there. It's. It's not that there's a quick shooing away. You're inspecting it, You're. Oh, wait a second, is this good or bad? Love is the one that it takes a lot longer to get going, but once it gets going, it runs and it just stays going. It's constant. It's. Well, just read Corinthians. You can find all the things that love is. Right?
But there's power there, and we should respect that power because you don't want to blindly walk into someone who is a narcissist and who is using that power and just blindly blurt out everything you know, and you have to choose what you're going to say. You have to choose who you open up to. And it should take time.
[00:58:33] Speaker C: You know, I want to say exactly what you just said, Dave, and just. But in different words. Remember when I was talking about the mask?
If you can look through and see the traits, you know they're a narcissist immediately. That tells you they have a mask on. And what's behind the mask is deep, deep selfishness.
And the last thing they want is that mask peeled off.
Now, when you know that, who has the power?
[00:59:07] Speaker D: Amen. You do.
[00:59:09] Speaker C: You do. You bet. Yeah.
They, you know, you peel it off, they're going to go into narcissistic rage. But when you have their number and they know you have their number, they're gonna.
They're gonna back off. They.
[00:59:28] Speaker A: Yeah.
Narcissists tend to be weak.
[00:59:32] Speaker B: It's just.
Yeah, weak. Yeah. I was just gonna say. It's just simple. Love is not rude, and love does not desire its own way. Like you said, David Corinthians, just those two air covers.
Well, that X is the narcissist out.
[00:59:51] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:59:52] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:59:53] Speaker D: And if you. If you look at what strength is, strength is calm.
Nowhere ever have I felt strength when I'm in a situation and there's a leader next to me and they're calm and they're decisive and they move gently to me. That's the ultimate strength. It's those ones that are trying to force and push and coerce. That's. Those are the ones that. Ah, yeah, you're barking that. That's not really going to move me.
[01:00:32] Speaker C: Yep.
Right about time. Air watchful. I. Yeah.
[01:00:39] Speaker A: So we're going to spending the whole week on this. This is why the week is coming. From darkness to light is we're. You need to be in a position of strength. Now is not a time to be afraid. There's a lot of fear mongering. There's a lot of people who are proclaiming fear. They want you. You know, they're afraid of the Antichrist, they're afraid of end times, they're afraid of war, they're afraid of the Great Tribulation. Now is not a time to be afraid. It's not a time to be afraid of where we are in the. In the timeline of things. It's not a time to be afraid of where you are wherever you are in your life. Now is a time to get strong, to work from a. To come together and who cares what's going to happen to us. We can deal with it from a position of strength. So if you need help, reach out, ask for help. If you're not getting the help you need, keep going until you get help. If you need to remove yourself from a situation, remove yourself from a situation. Go get strong before you deal with something that you think you need to suffer through. This is. We're get. We're going into a time now to where this is the time that profit. I believe being in the end times. This is the time that all the centuries have looked forward to throughout our entire course of history. So I believe we're in the end times. This is the most exciting thing because it just means that our Lord we're going to. We're going to finally meet our Lord, right? He's coming back. Don't know when, but he's coming back. And we want to be doing his work when he gets here. You don't want to be beating the servants. You don't want to be getting drunk with your buddies.
You want to be helping people and you want to be making yourself strong so that you can help others. And so that's what this whole week is going to be about. And if you haven't listened to the song yet, from darkness to light. Go listen to that. It is a journey. It made me cry.
That's why it came out the way that it did. It is.
Don't get. It's funny because when I made the song, my daughter hates the beginning.
She doesn't like the. That guy, the Viking guy like lament. He's like talk singing and then she can't stand that. If you're that type of person where you're like, I don't really like this. Listen to the whole thing at least once.
It's a highly emotional song, at least for me, because it's all about coming out of darkness and coming. Waking up, coming out of Babylon and, you know, being that Zion, who God, who we are, who God has made us to be. So it's going to be a fun week. You guys. This has been fantastic. Thank you so much for coming on the show.
This has been good conversation.
My heart goes out to anybody who's suffering. My heart goes out to anybody who is in a tough time right now. Just know that that's not God's will for you. You know, you. You may be going through something in order to make you stronger. His will is for you to be strong, and that's what you need to focus on. You. You don't remember. So remember that God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind. You guys have anything before we go?
[01:03:52] Speaker D: I want to.
[01:03:53] Speaker C: Go ahead, Dave.
[01:03:55] Speaker D: I was just going to say it was an absolute pleasure. I am so happy I was able to sit in on this call. It was great meeting all of you again. So thank you so much.
[01:04:06] Speaker A: Thank you.
[01:04:07] Speaker C: I have a question I'd like to ask the people in the chat, and I'm not making any promises here, but would it be helpful to have a small group where we would be able to talk back and forth with each other?
And if you could let Lanny know, maybe just type in the word yes and Lanny will get the message to me and we'll see what we can do. No promises. It's just a thought that I'm kind of thinking about.
And I do want to say, Ashley, it's really been a pleasure with having you here on the phone and being part of. Part of your journey.
[01:04:55] Speaker D: Yeah, definitely, Ashley, thank you.
[01:05:00] Speaker B: Pleasure is mine. I had a great time. You guys are wise. This is. I pray this reaches many ears and hearts because this is good. This helped me even right now. Thank you, Paul. Thank you, David. Thank you. Watchful. So good to meet you finally.
[01:05:17] Speaker A: Yes, you're very welcome. Pleasure having you on the show. And I know there's a lot of people who are wanting to ask questions. We're going to be talking about this all week long. We'll make some time for asking for question and answers. It's just we're already at time today, so, you know, we want to stick to the hour that we have scheduled. We may extend that in the future. But for now, we want to stick to what we've agreed to with the, with the schedule. So I see you guys, and I want to answer your questions and have that conversation. I hope that you'll remember those and ask them again later this week. So we're going to be talking about this all week. So if you can actually send them to
[email protected] that's another way that we can actually answer them for you guys. So with that, God bless you guys. Thank you so much for joining us tonight. I look forward to seeing you guys tomorrow. In the meantime, God bless you. Shalom. Shalom.
