Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: But the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long suffering, kindness that never will cease, goodness and faithfulness, gentle and whole self control, guiding my heart and soul.
These are the gifts planted inside, bearing the fruit of a life in Christ.
[00:00:42] Speaker B: Alrighty. Welcome back to another episode of two Witnesses Live. Today we have Paul and David joining us again. We'll get to some intros here in a minute, but before we figure out who they are, let's recap a little bit where we left off last. So let's see, we did healing the Nation One foot at a time, I think is what I ended up labeling the last video, the produced video that I republished. And it was all about service. I think we talked a lot about listening and serving one another again under this umbrella of love, God and love your neighbor. So that's kind of where we left off on Friday. I think we looked at Trump's plan for rooting out the evil peoples.
Yeah. So today we're going to be getting into the seven churches and we'll probably be doing an overview of the whole book of Revelation if it works out that way. So not really like a page by page study, but an overview. And I'm excited about getting into this. So one thing I've done, I've done a. We have to be really careful in the way we go about doing this because even just like reading and talking about the seven churches can literally take hours.
In the past, I've done videos on this and it is really easy to go for three hours. So the objective is to try and get this, you know, keep this within our one hour limit and, you know, have an engaging conversation without boring people, which I think we'll be able to do.
But yeah.
All right, so let's go around and introduce ourselves. Paul, who are you and what do you do?
[00:02:29] Speaker C: Hi, I'm Paul. I'm retired and was essentially an entrepreneur for most of my working life. And today I work harder than I did then.
[00:02:40] Speaker B: Cool. David, who are you? What do you do?
[00:02:43] Speaker D: Oh, my name's David Sepulveda. I am a father of four. That is definitely hard work keeping the family going. And I work as a director for the state of Wisconsin.
[00:02:59] Speaker B: Awesome. And everybody, you guys had a chance to read Revelation at least two and three, right?
[00:03:07] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:03:09] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay, cool. So we're all on the same page, so let me see if I can share my screen. Let's do that. Does everybody see that?
[00:03:17] Speaker C: Yep, I can see that.
[00:03:20] Speaker B: Sweet. All right, so one thing, there's just a couple of things I want to point out. One is the book of Revelation is the only book that there's specific blessings to the person who reads it. So in Revelation 1:3 it says, Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy and keep those things which are written in it for the time is near. Which it's interesting to point out because there's no other books in the Bible that actually come with that same promise.
So we're not going to go. I don't think we need to go through and do a, you know, a reading of all of these. We can, if people want us to, you know, comment on each one. We probably have time that we could. But because it can be so time consuming, I'm thinking that we probably. I want to just kind of focus on these guys right here. So in Revelation 2 and 3 it talks about the seven churches. So Jesus in Revelation 1 tells John to address letters to the seven churches. And that's basically what you have in Revelation 2 and 3 is those letters that are written to the seven churches. And the reason why we.
I feel very strongly about focusing on these is because at the end of those letters he says, these are the things you need to do before I return. So given the fact that he's not here yet, it's still applicable of things that need to be done. So me personally, I want to evaluate these to see, okay, where do I fit in these? You know, these seven churches and church can just mean assembly. I believe that this is Jesus's way of basically organizing and categorizing everybody who looks to him as their Lord. I get that from Revelation 120 because it talks about him holding the seven stars and surrounded by the seven candlesticks. There you go. She's our producer, she gets to push buttons. Yeah. So that's my personal take is that this is Jesus way of taking 40,000 different churches that claim to follow him and organizing them into groups. Now granted this is based on literal churches that started soon after he was crucified. Right.
The book of Acts writes about that to where they started these churches. So they have a physical representation.
But because they're still applicable before he returns, it seems as though there's a continued application. And that's kind of what we're here to talk about today.
So what are your guys thoughts on these?
[00:06:16] Speaker C: Yeah, the first blush, they're very simple and also very technical at the same time, which was kind of interesting. Lots and lots of moving parts.
Yeah, the. And you know, and it's something I think everybody can easily read and What I did was kind of looked through for things that thinking about myself and what are things that I should work on?
You know, and then. And then kind of looked at some of the. Some of the things are. Well, we'll get into that. But, you know, the meat sacrifice to idols, I'm not really sure quite how that fits today, but I think we're probably still doing similar things.
[00:07:15] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, those are the things I want to talk about. It's like, what. What did you. What were your questions when you were reading them? I love to hear people's.
It's so much information that this is one of those things, like you were saying you have to go over and over and over again.
But it's just like there's questions and thoughts that you have coming up as you're reading these. And yeah, like, to me, it took me a while to realize, wait a minute, these are applicable because he says, you know, do these things before he returns or else.
[00:07:48] Speaker D: The.
[00:07:50] Speaker C: You know, I think we still kind of have. I'm not sure I can come up with a great example, but meet sacrifice to idols.
To me, if an idol, of course, is something that is other than God, the Creator, that we take kind of a worship stance towards, and it could be any true.
And so my mind was kind of thinking about maybe there are, like, ceremonies or there are special dinners where we're kind of exalting people for having, you know, done something. Awards dinners or something like that. And are we really handling those the way that we should?
But like I said, I wasn't really kind of coming up with a good example, but that's. That's where my mind was going on at anyway.
[00:08:47] Speaker B: So the meat sacrifice to idols is going to be either in pergamum or thyatira. I don't remember which one it is. I want to say it's probably pergamum, because the way I remember it is. So Ephesus has very little to repent from. They just have to return to their first love, pergamum.
They have doctrinal issues. False teaching. Thyatira. No. Discernment heresy. They suffer Jezebel.
So those ones probably are the ones that are. Can you see my mouse up there? Oh, it doesn't share my mouse. Yeah. So it's probably pergamum or thyatira that they eat the meat sacrificed to false idols. But so, like, nourishment. Meat is nourishment. Right, Right.
So I don't know, you know, if you're eating. If you're being nourished by you know, worshiping false idols. Actually, let me find that you guys can talk while I go look it up and we can read what it says or not. I guess somebody want to hum.
[00:09:53] Speaker D: One of the things that caught my eye while I was reading through this. And I. I'll be honest. I read this. I was out in my tree stand, right, Hunting this weekend and reading through this and writing out some notes and just kind of being peaceful. And what hit me first, before I even got to the. The meat part, because that me part, I got some ideas, obviously. I don't know. I. I didn't receive revelation. I'm just trying to think with my. The brain that God gave me. But when what caught my eye first was like in 2 Revelations 2, 2 where it talks about. It says, I know thy works and thy labor and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil. I mean, holy cow, I feel that how many have I come across that are just evil? And then. And thou has tried them which say they are apostles and are not, and has found them liars.
I mean, holy cow, if we haven't heard a lot of lying going on, then either you're just not paying attention or you're. You're not listening. But that really, really hit me hard. And has born and has patience, and for my name's sake hath labored and has not fainted.
That's verse three. That stuff just speaks to me because, like, I think of some of the things, even. Let's just look at regular, basic things. Like my wife and I, we have a budget and I get. I make pretty good salary. I'm not. I'm not rich or anything like that, but I go on. $80 a week is what I put aside for me to spend without having to consult or look at my budget or anything like that. I have $80 I can take and throw in the garbage if I wanted to, right? I can take it. I usually end up buying lunch or buy cigars or something like that. But there is labor that I put into that, and God honors that, right? And when we go through these times where now groceries are through the roof and you can't buy anything, those people who have labored and held themselves to any kind of a standard are the ones that are going to have it pay out in the end. So when I read those two verses, I was like, yes, this is why I actually take as many steps as I do when I am supposed to go exercise. This is why I try and listen to music that's not Just burying me.
[00:12:44] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:12:46] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:12:46] Speaker B: I don't know if you guys noticed with AI, where I'm able to actually generate music way quicker. So I have a lot of lyrics that I've written over the years, and also with the help of AI, I'm able to augment some of those lyrics. So the plan is to actually produce music every week that we'll use during the show. Not the live show, just during the produced shows. But you reminded me about that labor of love, because, you know, you mentioned, like, listening to music that just, like, tears you down. It's just like, there's a severe lack of, like, music that's just good to listen to, like. So I put one, made one yesterday. Was it yesterday or the day before? It might have been the day before, but the idea was, is like, I want something to remind me about the fruits of the spirit. It. And so I just started working on the lyrics, put together some music, ran it through AI, and now we have that song published on this channel called Fruit of the Spirit. And it sounds pretty good. I like it. But it made a really cool intro to the. To the beginning of that video. But not to get too far off track, to your point, I believe you're talking about the Church of Ephesus. It's 80 bucks. Huh? Remember when we only had $30 to spend in college?
[00:14:02] Speaker D: I do. That was crazy. And I couldn't even put my rocking chair near my bed.
Yeah, go ahead.
Yeah, that's a good one.
[00:14:14] Speaker B: Yeah. So, yeah. When.
In order to teach us how to handle money, so our college, we had to get sponsors to actually pay for our college. It was a particular training, leadership training, and we had to get sponsors to actually pay for the overall college.
But part of that is we. Yeah, yeah, we. Part of it. We got a $30 budget to spend. So, like, all of our needs were taken care of with the exception of some toiletries. So we had to, like, you know, be very. We had to be frugal, and we had to be genius ways to try and figure out how to make that $30 last a long time.
That. That set me up for life. I mean, I know how I can relate to Paul when he says, I know how to be abased and I know how to abound. I know how to be rich. I know how to be poor.
[00:15:08] Speaker D: Yes. But, you know, that's where I met my wife in college. And we have stuck to. My wife has everything we spend our money on, everything, how many gifts we buy for people every year, and it's all on A whole year salary. And then we budget our money accordingly through different accounts. These are fixed bills, these are variable bills. But there are so many people who don't know these tricks on how to manage that money. And I mean, it goes right back to faithful and least faithful and much. Right. And then when prices go through the roof because wickedness is waxing worse and worse, we're able to look and say, okay, well, maybe we're cutting back on these gifts. Instead of budgeting 30 bucks for a gift, we're cutting it back to 15 or, you know, however it works. And like, I used to get $50 a week, and then we were doing so well, I got a raise. I got up to $80 a week. That's like $12 a day. Right?
[00:16:10] Speaker B: Right.
That's good.
[00:16:14] Speaker D: I tell you, it helped us a lot.
[00:16:17] Speaker B: Yeah, helped me a lot, too. It helped eliminate the fear. Like, if you can. If you can, even if you have the means, if you can actually discipline yourself to be mindful of everything you do. So everything you do financially, everything you do and everything in your life, you'll live life to the fullest. You'll have a deeper appreciation for things. Like, I can't tell you how much I would appreciate, like, getting a box of cereal, because I could have only afforded every six months.
Like, buy your special cereal. You save up for it for several months.
[00:16:50] Speaker D: Yeah.
And then you eat it a lot slower.
[00:16:54] Speaker B: Yeah, It's.
[00:16:56] Speaker D: It's like if I have all of my money in one checking account, that's where I just put all my money and pay all my bills from there. Then when calamity hits and I gotta get either a new tire for one tire or I buy all four tires, I'm looking at that whole dollar amount and saying, oh, yeah, I don't. I could spend this on four tires. And then, lo and behold, I forgot I had to pay the electric bill. Right. But if I have them separated, that these are the bills I know that are coming. These are incidentals. This is my play money. If I have it separated, then I can look at it separately and say, okay, from my play money, I actually have enough to buy four tires. Or maybe I'm just going to buy one to replace the one that's blown, and I'm going to have to make it for at least another so many months before I replace all four. But you have that clarity now because you've separated it. But if you keep it all together, and that's what people need to learn, they need to learn those. That's A biblical habit.
[00:18:00] Speaker B: Yeah, well, and bringing it back to Ephesus, that's. That's the church that I believe you're referring to is when you read about them, that's the church that actually cares about the details.
You know, they, they. The. The cool thing about these is they're in order of when they were started. And Ephesus was the first church that was started.
It was started by Aquila, Priscilla, Paul. He visited there for several months. Tychicus. These are all people who, who, who lived and met Jesus, met Yeshua, and they knew who he was and they were spreading the gospel about him. So one of the ways I see Ephesus is they were the church that had everything right.
They got the training straight from him for the most part, and they were the first ones to be able to speak his message. Right. And you can see the effect of that to where it's just churches were groups and assemblies. When I say church, biblically, church just means assembly, doesn't mean like a building.
So assemblies would form, they would, you know, they'd go out and they'd speak and they say, hey, did you. Have you heard about the Son of God? He died and was resurrected. And somebody's like, oh, yeah, I probably heard of. I've heard about him. I wanted to know more about that because you can imagine that message would spread. And that's how the other churches started, is they started from Ephesus. And that's basically what the Book of Acts is about, is the rise and expansion of the Christian church during that period of time. But I always think of Ephesus as the church of, like, details. Like, they, they're the ones who, you know, had the most accurate understanding. They're the ones who were like. When people would be like, oh, you know, when he was teaching you these things, you know, should we keep these laws? And they're like, no, no, no, no. He. He showed us this, you know, he. He summarized all the law and the prophets under love God and love your neighbor. You know what I mean? It's just like that's how they got their start.
[00:20:01] Speaker C: Some, I think it was two churches had an issue with sexual morality.
[00:20:09] Speaker B: Yeah. Pergamum and Thyatira.
[00:20:13] Speaker C: I had a couple thoughts on that that I'd like to share.
To me, and this is. I guess I'm not going to go through and prove it, but my perspective anyway is what we'll just call it my opinion, but I think a lot of the sexual immorality that we see in our culture today is Rooted in not really practicing good love towards each other.
And so sex becomes kind of a take it off the shelf, you know, cheap version of really loving each other.
And I think we see the lack of love and the lack of unity across the people. It takes a lot of work to care for people, to, you know, seeing how their day went to really understanding that, what they're saying to help them with anything that they're struggling with. It's easier to do these kind of cliche, how's your day? Oh, it was fine. Instead of really digging in and understanding, it takes so much more work. And I think we're not really digging in and loving each other as well. And so that's why we're seeing these morality issues in our culture.
[00:21:42] Speaker B: Yeah.
So what do you think?
[00:21:47] Speaker D: Sorry.
[00:21:48] Speaker B: No, no, go ahead, David.
[00:21:50] Speaker D: I was thinking what you're just saying there, Paul. I feel that whole lack of wanting to engage in the other person. It brings about a selfishness.
And I feel like that selfishness is what leads toward the immature concepts of love, where it's. It's a. It becomes a selfish love. It's a. What's in it for me? Love. And I mean. And it really goes. We're seeing it even in. When we start talking about the different genders. And we're not in our society, we're not loving a man for being a man, and we're not loving a woman for being a woman. It's like, well, if the woman can do the same thing that the man can, well, then she's worthy. And if the man can do the same thing as the woman and what the man spoke, then he's worth. And it's like, wait a minute. We need each other. And it's. We're getting away from that and making it selfish. It's all about having my own righteousness.
I. I just in. In that book of Revelations, it's funny to me in the chapter two toward the end. Is it two or three? Sorry. I believe it's in three. When they start talking about the parties, the dressed all in white.
Right. I don't know about you guys, but I see it on TV all the time, these parties where everyone's dressed in white and they're the. I don't really know where that whole concept of having a party and everyone dress in white came from, but I got to imagine somebody read this and knew that it meant something about being holy, something about being astute, something about being something to be honored, right? So they wear this white. And then there's People who are probably wearing it just because they just want to wear white. And it makes me wonder how many of these people are doing it. And they know that they're pretending. Right. And they're influencing people to pretend and play this almost like you're dressing for Halloween type of thing to go party. And I. I kind of think that those. Those type of actions lead down a pathway of this is not warranted. I didn't work my budget, but I'm still gonna act like I don't have a care in the world when it comes to money.
I'm. I. I not showing love toward my neighbor or my family, but I'm. I'm gonna pretend like I do.
[00:24:25] Speaker A: It's just.
[00:24:26] Speaker D: There's a lot of pretending out there.
[00:24:29] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:24:30] Speaker B: Well, yeah. Yeah. Disciplining yourself is loving yourself. I almost wonder if that's not a big part of loving your neighbor as yourself is. You know, if you're a total slob and you don't. Don't love yourself and don't take care of yourself, then you probably don't want to love your neighbor like that either. That is something that we should be taking care of not from a haughty or an egotistical perspective, but from a disciplined perspective. You know, discipline how we spend our money. Don't just be frivolous. Discipline about exercise, discipline about what we put into our body. Discipline about reading and staying in the scripture so that you can maintain, you know, you know, God in your temple up here, so that you're just always thinking about him, allowing him and, you know, allowing the, you know, the records that are in the scripture to actually guide you throughout your day. But you made a really interesting point. So much of this reminds me of, like, this battle of narcissism and empathy, right?
So many of these churches. And this is one of the things that I really want to kind of like, who do you think fits into these categories? Because, like, you have Ephesus, which is the church that, you know, was arguably most accurate, but they still got away and left their first love. But then we've got these churches like Pergamum and Thyatira, which They're. They're consuming things that are sacrificed to idols in their. In their committing sexual immorality, which is a very selfish act. Right? So you're. You're. You're cons. You're doing things for you, not so much your neighbor.
[00:26:03] Speaker D: Right.
[00:26:04] Speaker B: And they have. They have serious consequences. The sexual immorality has serious consequences, whether it's, you know, sleeping around, homosexuality, transgender, Issues, I think those probably fall under it. You know, those. Those have real consequences. You know, whether it's something as simple as just division in your marriage or something more long term of like, you know, you've made a change to your body you cannot reverse.
[00:26:30] Speaker C: Right?
[00:26:30] Speaker D: Yep.
You know, that that's always been tough for me thinking about the homosexuality and the trans and all of that movement. And when I say it's been tough for me, is that where I live, I have lots of friends, acquaintances that I know that practice that in their lifestyle, and I genuinely care for them as people. Right. And at the same time, I know that what they're doing is not best for them. And I try and do my best to figure out how is it, how do I see that? And one time I actually had a gentleman ask me, you know, what would you do if one of your kids turned out this way? And I asked them for some time and I said, hey, can you. Can you give me a day to think about this? Because I don't want to just shoot from the hip. And I came back to him and I talked to him and I said, you know what, what would hurt me as a dad looking at my child is I know that when I look into and my four kids, you know, I look at each one of them and I can say, this one, you are 90% mom, but you look like me. This one, you look like mom, but you are all me, right? And when you don't have the man and woman come together and produce a child, you don't have that. Maybe you have one, right? Maybe you have an adoption and you have some similarities. But there are times when my second son, he can start a sentence and I can finish it. I. He'll say two words into it, and I know exactly where he's going with it, right? But then my first son, he'll say two or three words, and I have no clue what he's talking about. But I look at my wife and my wife's like, oh, he's going here. This is what he's saying, right? And when they were in school, I gotta tell you this story. I'm sorry.
My second son, who's just like me, has adhd. And his teacher was like, we need to put this wall up in front of him. It's a. You know, it'll surround him so he can take the test, and that will help him concentrate when he's losing focus. And I turned to my wife and I said, would that have helped you when you were little and had. And you lost focus. And you don't know what my wife responded was.
And I never lost focus when I was little. I was like, what?
I lost focus all the time. And if you would have put a wall up like that, I would have started flinging stuff over it and pretending it was a blind, and it would have just been a toy for me, right? So I told the teacher, I said, look, I've. As an adult, I've learned that I get distracted by my ears. And if you cover my ears and I don't hear anything, you know, then I can stay focused.
And so what we. We did that, we got an ipod, we put in some classical music and asked the teacher to do it. Gave it to my boy when he was taking tests. He started acing tests, right? So when I went back to my buddy who was talking, you know, what would you say to your son? I say, your life is just going to be hard.
And I am not saying I do not love you. I am not saying I do not care for you. I do not want life to be harder than it already is. I want you to go further than me. I want my mistakes to be a bridge for you.
I feel like that is more the angle that we should be taken when we come across people, because no one sin is worse than the other. But if we come into it like, we want God's blessings for you and choose what you're gonna choose. You know, Adam chose, right. God told him not to do something, he decided to do the opposite. Right?
And so I get to choose. And I don't always choose. Right. But when I do, life gets a lot easier. Sorry for that rant.
[00:30:43] Speaker B: No, no.
[00:30:45] Speaker C: I've got some friends that have. They're into the homosexuality or transgenderism or were at one point in their life, and it got to know them well, and they experienced a lot of brokenness, usually in their family and when they were young.
And it just kind of tweaked their life a bit. And some of them were able to kind of get right back onto track, but it was their way out, was getting back and learning how to actually love other people in a good, healthy way.
I was seeing the same things you were, I think, watchful on the empathy and the narcissism in a lot of these things in the churches.
Something else I was seeing is how well people were connecting with God the Creator in these different churches. Some well, some not so well.
[00:31:57] Speaker B: Well, yeah, and that's the point. That's why I'm, like, hyper focused on these seven churches, because to me, it feels like this is a list of action items before Christ returns. And what we're talking about now is a hundred percent in that list of items. Like what these people, you know, who have sexual immorality according to the scripture. We still love these people. I have, I have friends that are homosexuals. Neil Patrick Harris is my favorite actor of all time and he's married to a dude. You know what I mean? It's just like you don't label people as evil because of their sins. It's just like I think that is. But you know, you have to acknowledge that they're sins because Jesus says that, look, if you're going to follow me, you need to repent from these things. And I believe there's a reason is because those things don't bring you the fulfillment in your life. It's, we don't, we don't love these people. We don't say, you're not my neighbor, you know, it's just like we still love them as we love ourselves. But you know, you, you don't want to participate in what they're doing. You don't want to consume the things that they're sacrificing to their idols. You want to, you know, those things should still be detestable to you, but it's the things that are detestable, not the people. Right?
[00:33:09] Speaker C: Right.
[00:33:10] Speaker D: It's, it's the, it leads me to want to find ways to help 100%. That's in the end, what we're trying to do is.
It was just in chapter three, we talked about the hot or cold. If you're lukewarm, I spew you out. Right.
I think of so many times where I've been put in a situation where I need to speak my mind. Right? Where something gets, where a sin gets exalted as this is the right thing to do and I'm in the situation. Well, am I speaking up against that? And if I decide to speak up against that, when am I deciding to do that? Right. Because I'm not looking to start a fight every, everywhere I go. Right. But when I find someone who's lukewarm, they're not sure what they're, they're not red hot, they're not ice cold. Right. They're lukewarm. That's the one where, oh, I got an in route. Let me talk with them. Let me find out what's going on in their life. Can I help? Can I get involved? And that's when I can take my red hot passion for God. And I can apply it to the lukewarm and say, hey, here's what I've seen, here's what I've done. And then ask them questions to where they get to start piecing things together. I get to play a part in their life and maybe help them to change, maybe help them to commit to putting on the mind of Christ, applying what they know that is right.
That's where I feel like we should be looking to push more is when we come across those lukewarm. Too often we get into those hot and cold where we're fighting like that. Ah, that's not worth its weight. I'm. I'm not into doing that. That if. Now if you're coming after my kids, that's a little different, then you're going to catch me hot.
But when I'm looking to win people over and I'm looking to love my neighbor, I'm not going to control their lifestyle, but I'm gonna throw heaps of love on them as much as I can.
[00:35:29] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it's. You know, you got to treat people the way. Oop. You still going?
[00:35:37] Speaker D: No, I. Well, there was the. In Revelations 3:19, as many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Be zealous, therefore, and repent. So it's like when I find those that I love and I've invested in their life, those are the ones that I'm looking to tell them, hey, this action you're doing, this is what's bringing about these effects in your life. And you don't want this, right? You want to be able to communicate. Communicate means you have to consider another opinion 100%.
[00:36:10] Speaker B: One of the challenges that I have is I used to tackle this really aggressively, and it never did any good. Like, just throwing the Bible at people just gives them a bruise, you know what I mean? It's just like trying to find those inroads to where it's just like, yes, something is detestable, but it's not like I'm gonna catch it by touching you. You know what I mean? It's not like it's a virus that's gonna infect me. And it took me a long time to realize that that was the case. That's just like, you know, there are people who have, you know, different things going on in their lives, and if you really want to help them. And I think this is what Jesus means when he talks about feeding those who are, you know, there's dual purpose to the parables. Parables where he talks about feeding those who are hungry, clothing those who are naked, visiting those who are in prison is. Yes, there's. There's a physical aspect to that, but there's also a spiritual aspect to that in that it's just like, you know, some people are in prison because of things that have happened to them. You know, they have certain behaviors that they've learned. They have certain, you know, mental issues that they've. That. That they've acquired due to circumstances. And it's just like, how do you visit these people and help them see their way through it, if you can? How can you love them and feed them and clothe them in a way that can get back to repentance? And one of the biggest challenges I have is how aggressive are you with that? Because it's just like, time is short, and I. But I don't want to push people away. I don't want to be like, you're a sinner. You're going to burn in hell. I'm done with you. No, it's just like, you know, this is somebody who usually it's an inspiration thing. It's just like God will, you know, put it on your heart to talk to that person. Like you said, David, it's just like we have people in our lives whom we love.
And I think that's a spiritual thing. I think God puts that love for other people in our heart so that we'll continue to reach out to them and, like, be there for them and, like, provide a path for when they're ready to repent. You know what. And maybe they don't get out of it by the time he returns, but, you know, maybe you change the course of their life in such a way that, you know, there are benefits that, you know, I don't think, you know, this is something we could talk about on another day is like, once saved, always Dave saved, always daved.
Once saved, always saved.
That would be an interesting conversation for another day. But just suffice it to say, I think that lately I'm just bringing everything under. Love God and love your ne neighbor. And, you know, what does it mean to really love your neighbor? Bashing, throwing Bibles at them and causing bruises and head wounds is. I don't think that's always the way. No.
[00:38:51] Speaker D: I'm sorry, but Revelations 30, 20. I mean, it ends right there with, behold, I stand at the door and knock.
If any man hear my voice and. And open the door.
So, yeah, yeah, we. They may hear what we're saying, but if they don't open that door, it's up to them. They have to choose the action of opening, Right? And it says, if any man hear my voice and open the door, I will come in and I will sup with him and he with me. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame and then set down with my father in his throne. So it's. It's that we just have to go around and knock. Hey, you need some loving. You need some loving. And it's not till they. Yeah, you know what? I know you well enough. I trust you enough that we go too much into looking for this fight against the big bad guy. And that's not what it's about. It's about going to that neighbor and, hey, why don't you guys come over? We're doing a barbecue. Get to know them.
[00:40:01] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:40:02] Speaker C: Yep. Yeah, I had a thought on the meat in the gods thing, and it's this.
And I guess I'm kind of interested in your reactions, but I don't think eating food is really the issue there. I think it's the gods and the worship of them.
And we still do that in our society today. Unfortunately, a lot of people worship the almighty dollar. We worship political parties.
We worship all kinds of stuff that are never going to do us any good whatsoever instead of worshiping the one true God.
And I wonder if that's kind of the applicability today from those letters.
[00:40:49] Speaker B: Yeah, well, and that's. Yeah, that's just what I'm trying to discern for myself is just like, where do I fit in these categories and where do others fit? And how can I. How can I translate this into something to help them?
I pulled this up here.
[00:41:09] Speaker D: Have you seen any of these celebrity party things that have been going on where they're, like, eating food that's, like, laid on top of people, right?
[00:41:21] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:41:22] Speaker D: And, you know, some of that stuff, I've never been exposed to that, so I don't really know if any of that stuff is true, but I don't know if it's not true either.
[00:41:32] Speaker B: So. Yeah, just because we're. A lot of that stuff. A lot of that stuff's been in the news lately with P. Diddy and. Yeah. And geez, four years ago, I think it was, with Epstein, there was a bunch of that stuff because they did. They did all kinds of parties like that, and that was, like, really in the headlines a lot. I've never been a part of those parties myself. I'm not much of a partygoer, but.
[00:41:55] Speaker D: Yeah, I mean, I imagine that they're just as much as there are zealots for God, there are zealots against God. And even though I don't know who they are and what their practices are, they're out there. And I feel like when we get into reading this from Revelations, there are portions that we can directly relate to, and there are portions that we're like. That seems a bit nuts, maybe. It's out there, right. And we have to connect with those portions that are.
That apply directly to our lives.
[00:42:34] Speaker B: I'd like to think. I'd like to think that I'm in either Ephesus, Smyrna or Philadelphia. Those are like the three good. The three good groups to be in.
I don't worship. I don't worship Balaam. I don't think I have any sexual immorality, although I do love my wife quite a lot. She loves me. We have a vibrant relationship. But as far as, like, in the context of pergamum and Thyatira, I think we're good there. So Ephesus is the, you know, the church. I look at that as churches that, like, highly value studying, you know, the accuracy. Like, they really just. They don't care about, you know, their biases and their beliefs. They just want to know the truth. That's how I kind of see Ephesus. But they also have a. Because of that, they have a strength at bringing people to, you know, bringing them out of the muck and the mire, out of the doctrinal issues and bringing them to, you know, the truth of who Christ is. Smyrna is the church that's under crushing pressure here. Let's actually look at this chart. So in each one of these churches, Christ gives them an introduction which is specific to that group. He praises some of them, and then some of them, he gives them a rebuke, and then he gives them something to do before he returns. So this is what's immediately relevant, this charge. And then there's a punishment for if they don't. And if they do do what he says, then they have a promise. So the churches that you want to be in are Smyrna are Ephesus, Smyrna and Philadelphia. Smyrna is the church under crushing pressure. Philadelphia is the church of brotherly love. The churches, the groups you don't want to be a part of, are Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, or Laodicea.
Because Pergamum, they have doctrinal issues and some sexual issues, Thyatira, pretty much the same thing. They Suffer Jezebel.
There's a higher degree of manipulation. I think this is where a lot of narcissists live, is in the Thyatira Church because they. They manipulate.
Jezebel was very manipulative.
What was it? Jezebel and what was the guy. Can't remember her counterpart. No.
Anyway, you know what I'm referring to. So Jezebel, when you look at who she is and what she did, very manipulative person. But, yeah, so it's just like this. This has actually really helped heal me a lot from some of the narcissistic people that I was exposed to as a child.
Because the two churches that have nothing to repent from. So Smyrna and Philadelphia, those are the two groups that have absolutely nothing to repent from. He just tells them, you know, smyrna, be faithful. The church that's under crushing pressure, just continue what you're doing. And then the Church of Philadelphia tells them to hold fast. I mean, like, that's pretty easy. Just keep doing what you're doing. You know, love God and love your neighbor. So I think of, like, Smyrna as people that are, like, you know, putting themselves in tough situations. You know, especially I. I'm always thinking of the people who stayed behind in Afghanistan, knowing that there was a real risk of death being over there. You know, in those kind of places. It may not be that. That extreme, but that's kind of where my mind goes. But then Philadelphia is just like, you know, people who maybe. Yeah. So they don't say all the right words. You know, maybe they don't get things accurate, but they're really good at loving people. They just want to bring people to Yeshua. They just want to bring people into, you know, let's deal with your issues. Let's get you healed.
And then there's everybody else.
[00:46:10] Speaker D: You know, one thing that stuck out to me was there was one portion I read here where I believe is when he was talking about Jezebel, and. And he still says, except, oh, yeah, 2, 22, which says, behold, I will cast her into a bed. And them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation and then accept, they repent of their deeds.
And that hit me because I know I'm not perfect. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm a really good sinner.
I've made some mistakes. Right.
[00:46:59] Speaker B: That was always the thing in college. Every time we'd screw up, David was walking around going.
[00:47:07] Speaker D: You know, I. I know that I'm not. I will never cast that first stone, that's just not me. Right?
[00:47:15] Speaker B: Amen. But right.
[00:47:16] Speaker D: That portion at the end where it says, except they repent of their deeds.
That I know. Even when I've made mistakes, I'm like, oh, man, sorry, I didn't. And then it's like a going back and saying, okay, where did I break down? What could I have done? Because, you know, it's.
It's this body, this meat car. Like I explained last time, this meat car, I'm driving around and I gotta, you know, hold the steering wheel, pull it to the right because my car pulls to the left, right.
I have to figure out what do I do to keep that from happening? And. Right. And so when I get to that point where. Except they repent of their deeds, it's not just the, I'm sorry, I did wrong. It's okay. The next time this situation comes up, I'm going to do this. And it keeps me from misstepping or it engages other people to help me stay on the right path. Right. But then at the same time, I also have to surround myself with the right people that are going to say, hey, they're killer.
Yeah, let's avoid the wrath.
[00:48:34] Speaker B: Yeah.
I love this, though, because it's like you're saying, there's a chance. It's just like, look how bad these guys are. And he says, except you repent. So it's just like, man, that's. That's the God, you know, that's who I want to serve. That's who I want to follow. It's just like, you can blow it really bad, but if you repent, there's still a chance.
I love that.
[00:48:58] Speaker D: Yeah. I have to remind myself that this. This is not written to agonize me, right? I'm not supposed to read this and develop more fear, Right? But some of these.
[00:49:12] Speaker B: Right.
[00:49:12] Speaker D: Some of these are pretty scary, right? And it's like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. It's not to put fear in me. This is for comfort, for exhortation. This is to help me to want to be and do better. Okay. All right. I can get back to reading again.
[00:49:29] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, this is the only book that says the reader is blessed for reading it and keeping the things that are written therein. So, like, if you can read this and if you see yourself in these places, in any of these categories where you're told to repent, you should repent those. The benefit is there'll be a great reward. The consequences, there can be some punishment. I mean, there's definitely some punishment. There Like, I don't know what it means to remove your lampstand, but that does not sound good. What I mean, are being spit out.
[00:50:00] Speaker D: Yeah. And there's so much about lying, you know, in my. In my book, behind Mommy, in front of Daddy, I talk about how that is the opponent against our children is teaching them the power that comes with lying and the power that comes with telling the truth. And the difference between them, one is just in the moment, the other lasts forever.
I used a tree to explain to my kids, this is a trust tree. How long will it take to chop it down? How long did it take to grow? Right. And getting them to understand the power behind telling the truth. And reading through this, you see how, oh, they claim to be Israel, but they're not. They claim to be Jews and they're not. They claim to be. Yeah, right. All these things, and there's lies, but they do lie. Behold, I'll make them come and worship before thy feet. And to know that I have loved thee. I mean, I don't know. Could that be tariffs?
Who knows?
[00:51:05] Speaker B: Who knows?
[00:51:06] Speaker D: I don't know. But I know that if I keep telling the truth and I don't lie, that something good's gonna happen, Right?
[00:51:14] Speaker B: For sure. Yeah.
[00:51:17] Speaker C: Something that seems to apply here, you know, with. If you take all seven letters together, right?
And the things that need to be fixed, and then you kind of take that bundle of information and overlay it over the first and second New Testament commandments. It's almost like a reiteration of the same thing.
And I remember right at the end of that second New Testament commandment said, you know, I was saying that within this is all the laws and the prophecies, right?
[00:51:59] Speaker D: And.
[00:51:59] Speaker C: And this here is a prophecy. And I'm just seeing it, really, these letters as well, in the first and second New Testament commandments, really connecting.
[00:52:12] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, 100%. Yeah. I see this, you know, almost equal in the same way that I see the commandments of the Old Testament. You know, it's so interesting when you talk about, you know, the law, and people get so offended when it's just like, I make this comment that, like, if you want to know how to love your. Your neighbor, go read the commandments. There's 613 commandments in the Old Testament. Most people only know about the Ten Commandments, but there's 613 things that God says, do this, don't do that. And it's like, if you want to know how to love God and love your neighbor as yourself, that's what those illustrate, I mean, like, you know, people who say that those things have been replaced, that, you know, Christ came and did away with the law. No, he didn't. He fulfilled it and he recategorized it to, for clarity, so that you understand, all of those things fall under love God and love your neighbor. He simplified it in the same way that he simplified, you know, everybody who follows him today. And there's like 40,000. That's just a number I'm pulling out of nowhere. There's a lot of churches, a lot of denominations who say they follow Christ. They all fall, fall under these categories. I love how he simplifies things down, right? He doesn't invalidate the things that they're based on. He's just like, no, if you want to understand it, this is, this is how it's categorized all the law and the prophets. Love God and love your neighbor as yourself. If you want to know, you know, what you need to do before he returns, go look at the seven churches. This is where those people who say they follow me fit into these categories. Are you, Philadelphia? Do you love people as you, as you love yourself? Or are, you know, you maybe not doing things that are the best? You know, maybe you're worshiping, you know, other gods and other idols. Maybe you're, you know, there is some sexual immorality in your life. You know, those kind of things. Maybe you're in the dead church.
[00:54:00] Speaker D: You know, you're lukewarm with what you're sharing there. I, I think it's amazing that these letters are written to the actual people that are doing it. Right? So often when we read this, it's just think of, oh, I'm gonna go share this with those people. Wait a minute. God works in them. They've got to read it, they've got to answer it. And it's really one of those, okay, well, who am I? Because that's where my battle is.
Whether I line up, like what you were saying, I line up with this church, that church, whatever.
I think that just falls right under the whole meat car thing.
I'm gonna work that in no matter what. Meat car.
[00:54:51] Speaker B: Yeah.
Well, cool. Well, do you guys have anything else you wanted to talk about before we wrap this, wrap this overview up? No, no, this is, I love this. This is like, this is where I like to spend my time, is like contemplating the seven churches. And it's like, you know, how can I, how can I use this to help somebody avoid the punishment?
[00:55:14] Speaker D: I, I what the last thing I'll say with this not the last thing. Because I'm always going to keep talking. I'm a talker. Who am I trying to kid?
The in. In 3, verse 20 and 21, where it talks about the. If I'm knocking at the door, right. I feel like he's talking about who we look for. Right. Who we spend our time with. And I think, oh, am I going off.
Sorry.
I think I'm going off kilter here. This might be a bad point, but I was just thinking about the structure of who God is. The structure that he puts out there for all of us. There's a portion of in here where it talks about that. What he closes, no one can open. What he opens, no one can close that. The structures. And when we find how to apply those structures in life, that that's what helps us to weather through the storm. That's the point I was looking to make was that structure that helps us to make it through. We're not looking to make arguments. We're looking for, here's a structure that works. Budget.
[00:56:30] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:56:30] Speaker D: Here's a structure that works. Vitamins, eat healthy, exercise. There's structures.
[00:56:39] Speaker B: 100%. I love it.
Cool. You have any departing words, Paul?
[00:56:45] Speaker C: The. One of the things I was thinking about is, you know, we're. We're all getting old, guys. Not. We're not real old yet, but we're getting there.
And through life, you know, we all have our adventures.
And I'm wondering if we weren't in all the churches kind of thing at one time or another in our life, and if we get it right, do we get all those rewards?
[00:57:13] Speaker B: Yeah, I wonder the same thing. Yeah, yeah. No, that's. That's. That's awesome. It's just like. So, I mean, because you liken it because there's some references to the seven spirits before the throne. And if you look at, you know, the seven spirits of the Old Testament, there's, you know, like wisdom, knowledge, understanding. Those. Those things are associated. It's like you can have all those things, you know, it's. It's like the fruit of the spirit, you know, love, joy, peace, long suffering, or the nine manifestations, you know, word of knowledge, word of wisdom under, you know, prophecy, speaking in tongues, those things. It's just like. Yeah, it's just like you could be in all of those, you know, it could be, you know, through the course of your life that you've been in each one of those things. And the objective is to, you know, maybe get to Smyrna or Philadelphia. Do you get to the point where you have nothing to repent from and then you get all the rewards.
[00:58:03] Speaker D: Yeah, well, that's a great point, because you can grow in either direction. And. Yeah, we're not developing anything new here. You start dressing up, there's a path. You start doing better, there's a path. That's a good point.
[00:58:21] Speaker B: I love it.
[00:58:21] Speaker C: These. These letters read the same as when I was seven.
[00:58:25] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:58:25] Speaker C: You know, we've been aiming at this our whole lives.
[00:58:28] Speaker D: Yeah. We have to keep adjusting.
[00:58:31] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you go back and you could fall back into one of those categories. You know, if you have a sin that's particular, particularly tempting you, you want to keep repenting. I think that's why he gives us so much grace. That was one of the things that stood out to me, is he gives us time. Even the people who are the worst, he gives time to. He gives space to. That's a loving God. That's a loving creator.
[00:58:56] Speaker D: I mean, how many times did we know what to do? Like, I mean, I have done it, and I have friends that do it. They know what to do. Even they come and complain to me and they tell me the right words, but they don't actually do it. Right. I've done it myself where I know the right words, but I don't actually do it. Yeah, there's an accountability problem.
[00:59:21] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. Well, cool. This was a lot of fun.
I was kind of curious on how this would. How it would go going through the seven churches. That there's a. There's a balance between wanting to get into too many of the details because, like, there's a lot here. I did a video on this, a teaching on it, and it took three hours literally, just to read it and talk about the churches. So there's, like, a massive amount of depth. And I'm very happy with the overview that we did and the points we're walking away from with this is like, there's some seriously applicable stuff. You know, you could be in one or more of these categories.
You know, these could be different stages in your life. You can, you know, potentially get the benefits from all of these things, or you may only be in one of them and you're not going to get much. You know what I mean? So this was great. Really appreciate you guys. Thank you so much for joining on this conversation.
If there's nothing else, you guys have anything else before we go? Nope, you're good. Cool. Well, God bless you guys. You got it all out. I know we could. We could probably talk about this all week. We could probably pick a church and talk about it all week. But I've got so many other things I want to get to this week. The idea this week is probably going to be doing an overview of this thing. So more conversations like this about the Book of Revelation to kind of get through it so that we get everybody on board and up to speed on, you know, what's going on. Because I really do think we're living in the end times. I think Yeshua is going to be coming back any day. Could be three years, could be seven years, but he's coming back soon. I mean, like, just look at the times.
But with that, God bless you guys. Have a great evening. Thank you gentlemen for joining us tonight. Don't forget to go if you're, if you're looking for a good book to read.
Behind mommy in front of Daddy. Little Adults in Training. That's on Amazon. We'll put the link in the description. Go, go pick up that book. Also, Christopher will be doing his show and I think an hour over on Christopher, Christopher M. Brock. He'll be doing his show tonight. So with that, God bless you guys. Have a great night. Shalom. Shalom.
[01:01:33] Speaker A: But the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long suffering, kindness that never will cease.
Goodness and faithfulness, gentle and whole self control, guiding my heartless soul.
These are the gifts planted inside bearing the fruit of a life in Christ.
